Paper shields

  1. They need to catch this guy fast.
    Cesar Armando Laurean is a scumbag killer who picks on girls.
    What a coward he is.
    The best word for him is loser.
    I hope he gets mad and comes after me because I laugh at him all over the Internet.
    I would love to come face to face with that jerk.
    Maria will always be an angel.
    May she rest in peace!
    I am,
    George Vreeland Hill

  2. Maybe Sheriff Brown should think before he speaks. To make a statement wherein he thanks God that this girl was already dead before she was reported missing and his office couldn’t have done anything to prevent her death upon their knowledge of same is irresponsible and insensitive! Can someone please give this guy a mouth filter? The unthinkable has happened to this family. Do they really need to hear Brown make these poorly executed comments at all, let alone on a national level?

  3. There is another element here that perhaps is being noted elsewhere and I am missing it. Camp Lejeune has a long history of being a place where violent crimes are committed (tolerated?) against women, going back at least 25 years. I truly doubt that many statistics are even documented in very many places. As per the statement by Brown. “This has nothing to do with the civilian world. Nothing about this had anything to do with the civilian world,” the USMC likes to take care of their own dirty laundry, but that doesn’t mean they are good at it. Similarly, the accusation of rape is not just a violation of the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice), but also a criminal offense. To claim this has nothing to do with the civilian world is ludicrous! As much too often is the case, when it is a crime against a women, too many excuses are made and very few lessons learned are applied, especially if the woman is in the military or does not come from a wealthy family.

  4. … If the Sheriff is also considering Gary Michael Hilton as a suspect. After all, this woman’s murder matches the MO Hilton has used to kill at least three other women and he is now a prime suspected in the murder of another young woman in NC within week of Lauterbach’s murder. Could it be that She was, as it was suspected, going AWOL, ran accross Hilton at the bus station, and he took her to Laurean house (to help her with her “rape problem”) and then killed her? Then when Laurean came home to find her dead, because he was already under investigation for raping her, panicked, tried to buun the body and buried the body in the back yard? I wonder bacause something isn’t adding up here. Laurean doesn’t seem like the kind of man who’d rape or commit muder. He’s on the lamb and someone is obviously protecting him; perhaps friends and family don’t believe him capable of so heinous a crime.

  5. All this guy Brown is worried about is covering his own incompetent self, and his own image. I will say one thing for him, though, I’m sure he’s not quite used to this kinda of media attention – I imagine it is very hard to handle, but he and his officers should have developed a media policy right away, and stuck to it.
    Oh! And how stupid does her mother feel now???? Calling her daughter a compulsive liar and not believing her about being raped by an obvious sociopath! Poor Maria. I hope she is vindicated and this guy is caught and made to face the death penalty.

  6. Find out who Just Wondering is…I bet Laurean is hiding there. He doesn’t “seem” the kind of man who would rape or commit murder? Are you kidding? Yes, the innocent always try to run and hide. The innocent was Durham and he didn’t run off hiding, did he?

  7. I hope I am one among millions who whole heartedly believe that this sicko should be charged with 2 murders. Even if the baby was not yet born, he or she was very much alive. Remember the report from the officer that said he would be scarred for life after seeing the tiny hand in a fist?
    If the judge doesn’t throw the book at him for both murders, our justice system has completely failed this young woman along with every single person in this country. Plain and simple.

  8. My sister was married to a Marine that was stationed at Camp Lejune. He was abusive and hit her on more than one occasion. She always thought that the Corps would protect her. She would get protective orders against him, but they were only good if they were on the base. When she went to get a civilian order as well she was given the run around.
    There were several occasions that I feared this poor girls fate would be her’s. Thank the Lord that she was able to get away before that happened.
    I am not downing all Marines, I wouldn’t do that becasue a few bad apples don’t spoil the bunch. What I am saying is that it is still a boys club and even though this girl was also a Marine they made her look like the bad person who had filed a false report. I don’t know if the man did or didn’t do what she claimed, but instead of not taking it seriously maybe someone should have helped her, instead of tormenting her.
    My prayers go out to her family, but also to his, because their lives are forever changed by this as well.

  9. I sure hope that if they find this rapist/murderer being hidden by a family member, friend, or fellow Marine that they arrest them and publish who they are and why they’re being arrested all over the place.

  10. I feel that the command took too long to investigate the original rape charge. Not only that, the military code of justice has articles against adultery as well as rape, so there are actually at least 2 charges, not to mention conduct unbecoming of a marine, that makes it at least 3 charges. Unfortunately I think that the Marine corps let this female Marine down, and the officers in charge of the investigation, should be charged with dereliction of duty. Being a female in the Marine Corps is an issue, in boot camp they teach you that we are all equal, just Marines, however unless you give 200% more than a male, and demand respect you will not get it. Then there are the males that do not want you there because you are considered a troublemaker, I am not saying there aren’t females that sleep around and cause there share of trouble. But this is were the system lets everyone down. In the Marine Corps training of males and females is still separated (thankfully), they need to do a better job of training Marines how to be courteous and have manners toward the opposite sex. If this were a male Marine that claimed to be raped by a male Marine, you better believe the wheels would have moved faster.

  11. What about this guy’s wife, did she know the rape happened?! What is her take on all of this?!

  12. ….better job of training Marines how to be courteous and have manners toward the opposite sex.
    I think that class is taught right after the one on how to kill your enemy with a spoon and a stick. If Mom and Pop have not instilled these values by the time the Marines get ahold of them then no amount of training is going to change that.
    The real question to the Marines is how this young lady disappears right after a meeting to answer questions regarding rape chages and nobody thinks twice about it. How can she be missing for weeks, eight months pregnant without anybody in her chain of command raising a red flag until after the sherif’s office starts to investigate her disappearance? Cant wait to here their explanation for that.

  13. the SAME thing happened in October in Bahrain…that scumbag killed 2 girls, one of who had a restraining order on him…and then he shot himself…it was ugly and sad…but they gave him a gun anyways after he got off restriction…yeah…that’s how they do over there…and listening to these marines back peddling is right on cue, being that it is the military and the military doesn’t like to let out bad news to the public, so I can just imagine that recruiting is taking a small hit on this one…they are kids first, marines later…all the services deal with this…young kids going off on their own and doing dumb things to eachother…all senior leadership can do is REACT, vice PROACT…more later…

  14. Having just retired from 30 yrs in the USN and having served as a shipboard Legal Officer, I’m here to tell y’all that somethin’ ain’t right with any of this .
    First of all, we need to hear a lot less form Sheriff Buford T. Justice and a LOT more from the command element at Camp Lejeune. The victim and the alleged perp are both Marines. Laurean was being investigated for a violation of the UCMJ committed against another Marine. The answers to most, if not all, of the salient questions are to be provided by the USMC.
    Specifically, I want to know about the following:
    1) Article 32 and / or Article 32 hearings; were they held and when? What was the outcome?
    2) Who issued the protective order? Why was it allowed to expire? The current excuse that, in effect, they (Lauterbach’s and Laurean) had a friendly relationship, is B.S. Blatant ass-covering is on full display.
    3) Who were Lauterbach’s and Laurean’s respective SNCOs ? Why weren’t they more observant? I sense a failure of leadership through either incompetence or indifference (i.e. “another harassed female marine, ho-hum”). Said lack of attention to detail could rise to the level of actionable misconduct.
    4) Finally, why were Lauterbach and Laurean still assigned to the same unit? My experience has been that, pending a final determination of the facts, and if necessary, a legal disposition, the principals in all such cases are physically separated through assignment to different units.
    I have deep respect for the Marines, but I suspect that they thoroughly screwed the pooch on this one.

  15. …Article 32 and / or Article 32 hearings.
    This should read: Article 32 and / or Article 15 hearings.

  16. C’mon sir…we are just as guilty in the Navy…remember Bahrain in October? I do, I was there…and I am still asking who is responsible for that terrible act? I think it should be some khaki for sure…cause I had to listen to all the garbage that we had to go through (typical kneejerk reaction)…Marines are no different…we will never know, you probably know that right? V/R MACM

  17. Paternity for Lauterbach’s unborn child, was it ever established? If it was determined that Laurean was the father, why wasn’t he charged with Adultery or another count under Article 134?
    I also sense that the Marines tried to “massage” this IOT avoid losing Laurean to the rape and/or adultery charges. Just curious, but was any pressure placed upon Lauterbach by her Chain of Command not to press charges?
    What, btw, did the respective SNCOs and unit SgtMajor have to say about any of this?
    If any of them tried to “protect” Laurean from the consequences of his misconduct, then a Special Courts Martial should be convened in their honor.
    It would be terribly ironic if, in an attempt to save one Marine, Laurean, they ultimately lost two.

  18. Master Chief, Please bring me up to speed on whatever transpired in Bahrain.
    Btw, I’m pursuing the CoC culpability line based upon my own experience. Sometimes we don’t want to believe that our “good” people can do bad things and hate to see them face the consequences. In a misguided attempt to protect our people, we sometimes place more people at risk.
    Objective accountability, now there’s a concept for you.

  19. Master Chief,
    You are absolutely correct in that “we are just as guilty in the Navy.” My intention is not to play the blame game as in the post-Tailhook witch-hunt, it is to determine real culpability. If Lauterbach’s was murder was facilitated by demonstrably poor judgement and/or inappropriate intervention on the part of her CoC, accountability is in order.
    Btw, I’m a retired MCPO.

  20. Steve,
    Next time, I’ll read before I type.
    I vaguely remember the Bahrain incident; I was in Japan on business for a few weeks and my “grapevine” didn’t reach that far.
    Although I upset many Watch Bill Coordinators and Security Officers, I routinely removed access to weapons for all persons charged and convicted under the UCMJ. Access was only restored after the completion of sentence (i.e., restriction) and a command level review. While on a Flag tour, I once ripped a flagship CMC for allowing a restricted person to stand a weapons watch. He didn’t see the problem and besides the duty sections were undermanned. Yes, certified dumbasses do make it into the CMC program.
    I’d be curious to learn the details of the Bahrain incident.

  21. It’s pretty much exactly how this recent incident played out, a restraining order was in effect…I would google it and make your own decision…nobody would have thought that it could take place… if anyone was to be called in front of the podium, there would certainly be some backpeddling…bottom line is that civilians look up to our troops and in actuality violence doesn’t discriminate…truly unfortunate that 2 of our youngest Sailor’s lost their lives, and a young, impressionable Marine lost hers…and now, if a Sailor is having a bad day, they have their gun cards pulled, which is fine and dandy, but a day late and a dollar short, and which a person who is mentally stable has to pick up the slack…I don’t have the answer; a psychological exam for everyone? As far as accountability? That’s almost non-existent….a damn shame…back to Camp Lajeune… A woman in the Marines with a complaint? Oh yeah right, I am sure her chain jumped through hoops to handle it…let the finger pointing begin!…God bless our troops!

  22. Steve,
    A damn shame, for sure.
    I did google the incident involving the three sailors. For me, the red flag was the suicide watch that Jackson was placed under after his first attack on Gresham. Let’s see: Physical Assault+Suicide watch+Restraining order = Access to firearms. Works for me!
    Seriously, and all Monday morning QB-ing aside, how did they justify this demonstrably terrible decision and why was Jackson even retained in theater prior to the tragedy?
    Maybe, just maybe, we will decide that the safety of our sailors comes before watchbill and manning concerns.

  23. A Paper Shield is only as good as the name that signed it.
    In this case – the USA Marines signed it
    but had NO intention of enforcing it or protecting Maria
    They failed to extend the protection off-base
    They failed to prevent further assaults (and obviously Murder)
    They failed to charge her peer who slugged her
    They failed to notice damage to her vehicle
    They failed to perceive anything about this case at all
    They failed.

  24. It still amazes me how fast Nancy Grace is willing to blame someone before she knows all the facts. Ready to back up ol’ Nifong to the hilt in the Duke case, even when he was going down in flames. I noticed she had to have someone sit in on her show when it was obvious the Duke guys were innocent. Back to the Marine case. She got all excited because the guy was not arrested just because some gal cries “Rape” Rape. Then to find out that apparently she told investigaters one was consentual. And the other did not involve force or threats. To top that off she claims her pregnancy was from the rape. She claims she was raped in late March and early April. But alas it was found during a prenatal checkup that her pregnancy came about after she filed the rape complaint. Sounds a little like the Duke case. Of course she then had to change her story. And still ol’ Nancy Grace going at it , or is it Nancy Nifong?

  25. Wow…another reason that I do not support the military nor have much love for them. Anyone recall the previous articles on this story going on and on about how Maria was a compulsive liar? Now who’s lying and who lives were sacrificed because of it? Accountability needs to begin with the military and perhaps a gender bias shakedown needs to occur. Air Force personnel forcing their religious beliefs on others, women getting raped,……

  26. “…Then to find out that apparently she told investigaters one was consentual. And the other did not involve force or threats…”
    John- Could you please provide me with your source for this info?

  27. Shannon,
    You would not believe the amount of Gender /Race indoctrination received by the current day US serviceperson. The problem is not that the perp and his possible enablers didn’t know that what they did was wrong; they didn’t, in their hearts, believe that it was wrong or that they would have to face the consequences.
    Hard to believe, but most of us military neanderthals grew up in environments that taught respect for others and the meaning of “no.”
    Unfortunately, we get too many bigots and mysogynists in the military, although I’m absolutely confident that we do better in this regard than the civilian population of military-aged males.
    Speaking of bigotry, do you always judge an entire group of people by the actions of a few? Just askin’

  28. Laurean will only be charged with one murder and that is Maria’s. Senator Dole and others of North Carolina’s legislature did not pass a bill saying that an 8 month old baby still in the mothers womb is a human being. Shame on them. Maybe they need to see what Sheriff Brown saw. This man is scarred for life. I have one thing to say that hopefully will have some bearing on Sherriff Brown, God has that baby. But, this doesn’t discount what has happened. Babies feel pain in the womb of a mother where it should be protected. As for the immigration thing, the Latinos take the place of our murdered babies.

  29. Oops. Looks like it’s time for a word from our sponsor… as in, me.
    First off — welcome to all who are visiting for the first time from CNN. I recognize that this young woman’s death provokes great emotion, and I appreciate the respectful, courteous tone that has been maintained here for the most part.
    Please try to keep your comments on topic, and avoid ad hominem attacks or redirects to other hot-button topics. If you’re unsure about my commenting policy, you can read it here (link).

  30. What happened to CNN’ s story that ran a few days before it was known she was murdered? It was all about how this woman was a pathological liar and her mother/stepmother (not sure which she is because a woman with the same name was identified as both in the article) confirmed she had a history of making up stories.
    Its like EVERYBODY from her mother to the sherriff is trying to blame this woman for what happened to her! It was obviously an embarrassing failure by a family, law enforcement, and the military in their obligations and efforts to protect her. Even CNN got in on dragging this woman’s name through the mud! Shame on you. You were WRONG and now she is dead because no one acted earlier. (Like months earlier) The b.s. coming from the mreem corpse now shows how much they cared about this woman. Not much!

  31. The Marines at best Tolerate females being in the Corps. If a female reports that she was raped, all of a sudden it is “alleged” and she is labeled a trouble maker and is instantly made to feel like an outsider wearing a bulls-eye on her chest. The Marines will do all that they can to cover up their lack of judgment and support that they never gave to her or any other female in this situation. Why was she living out in town? To try and have some sort of safe haven from the HELL that she had to deal with every single day!!! From the day that she reported the rape until the day that her body was discovered she was judged and made to look like the problem… I hope that everyone that didn’t believe her and treated her like a problem live with the fact that they are in part RESPONSIBLE for her DEATH! Her “Mother” I hope will live with the guilt of not standing behind her daughter and the silent “Father” may he rot for not coming forward and saying anything. If her family really had cared they would have been in NC 24 hours after not talking to her on the phone ESPECIALLY seeing that she was pregnant! The Marines are a BAND of BROTHERS! If the public only knew how many females are actually raped and are dismissed and made to withdraw the charges it would make people sick! Please don’t think that this doesn’t happen…It does and it is covered up all the time. The ONLY reason why this has come to light is because she paid the ULTIMATE PRICE!!! May she find the peace that she wasn’t afforded here in life and her baby as well.

  32. While it does appear that Lauderbach had some significant credibility issues, that does not absolve the Marines from having demonstrably failed to protect her from her alledged rapist/murderer.
    Not having a lot of info on which to go on here, but I do sense that Lauderbach may have been under pressure to retract her allegations of rape against Laurean. The Marines also have some ‘splainin’ to do as to why, with allegations of both physical and sexual assault against Laurean, they were allowed to remain assigned to the same unit and the charges against Laurean were not expeditiously adjudicated.

  33. FFM,
    As I said in a previous post, I have the utmost respect for the Marines, having been served with them on a regular basis throughout a 30 Navy career. It is ironic though, that in the few situations where I did find myself in conflict with a Marine, it was over their inappropriate behavior towards women.
    What I say next will probably make some people angry, but here goes: In a hypothetical situation, what do you do when you have an allegation of rape made by a person of very questionable maturity, judgement and, ultimately, credibility, who has managed to develop a reputation as the barracks’ “good-time girl?” This is not a comment on the Lauterbach situation per se, because I don’t know the details of her professional conduct, but this is representative of many of the situations with which I was involved.
    Very rarely were the charges of sexual assault substantiated. Nobody looked the other way, nobody failed to investigate in good faith; the evidence just wasn’t there. The situation is almost always complicated by the constant factors of youthful indescretion and alcohol. Almost always the existence of consentual sexual contact (kissing, petting, etc.), although not intercourse. Also, the young women often allow themselves to be alone in a hotel room or in private quarters with the accused. Young women not having the maturity to know the difference between touch and tackle. Young men not knowing the meaning of “no.”
    How many of these factors were present in the initial allegations of rape against Laurean?

  34. belloscm,
    Why you don’t just say that the women ask for it and deserve what they get while you are at it???
    Females in the Marines are either known as you so pleasantly put it as the barracks’ “good-time girl?” or the butch or other pleasant terms… As a female you are dammed if you do and dammed if you don’t. It all comes down to the unpleasant truth of it all which is especially true in this case she wasn’t protected by her command or her fellow Marines… You can say what ever you want, but that is the BOTTOM LINE! I served as a Marine and as a female so I know first hand how things are handled (or lack there of). I’m glad that you have the “utmost respect for the Marines”. Please realize though that you were in the Navy as a male looking as an outsider into the Corps. I’m sure that you were never in the room when the female was being spoken to /counseled for what took place. As far as Cpl. Laurean is concerned…Let’s be real shall we??? If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it’s a DUCK… People that have nothing to hide stay behind and face the music. He has MURDERED a woman and her child (whether he get charged for the unborn child or not), he tried to cover it up and now he has run… Honestly, do you think that he is INNOCENT?!?!?!?! He will most likely be a coward and kill himself before he is apprehended.

  35. May I interject?
    Speaking as a female from yet another armed service (the Army), I see truth in what both belloscm and Former Female Marine (FFM) have said in this thread.
    But belloscm, I take exception to this:
    Also, the young women often allow themselves to be alone in a hotel room or in private quarters with the accused. Young women not having the maturity to know the difference between touch and tackle. Young men not knowing the meaning of “no.”
    It sounds very much as if you’re blaming the victim.
    Are there young women in the armed forces whose behavior crosses the lines of good sense? Of course there are. And belloscm, you’re absolutely right that alcohol often plays a significant role.
    But I’ll take that a step further and point out that in my experience, when the type of behavior belloscm describes occurred, it was between a female service-member and someone of a higher rank — sometimes in her chain of command, and sometimes not.
    And all of that may or may not have the least bearing on what happened to the young woman who is the subject of this post. Without facts, speculation about her culpability, when the young woman is dead, are unseemly.

  36. FFM,
    First of all, if I felt that she “asked for it and deserve(d) what she got,” I would have had said so. Please slow your ideological white charger to a trot in order to avoid trambling the truth. It is almost certain that Lauterbach was murdered by Laurean; the reason the Marines didn’t prevent this is less so. Remember, everything is black and white, except for when it isn’t.
    “Please realize though that you were in the Navy as a male looking as an outsider into the Corps.” I’m sure that you were never in the room when the female was being spoken to /counseled for what took place.”
    I might have a little more insight into the Marine culture than you might suspect. The son of a Marine Officer, I frequently served alongside Marines for 30 yrs of active military service. Btw, what is the fundamental behavioral difference, regardless of service branch, between emotionally immature young people possessed of a, at best, mid-grade high school education? The Navy has to deal with similar, if not the exact same, problems as do the Marines. Minus the culture of service issues, of course.
    Speaking of “being in the room when the female was being spoken to /counseled for what took place.” I counseled the “female” servicemember many times. I was often in the room with the “female” servicemember, most times as “her” advocate, sometimes as “her” adversary. I pulled no punches. At a minimum, “she” was told that, unfortunately, the military was possessed of a bias regarding female servicemembers and tended to stereotype. I told the women not to engage in behavior that fed the stereotype. Learn the difference between a jerk and a man; learn the difference between touch and tackle.
    Males under my supervision were given the other side of things: Don’t discriminate, don’t stereotype. Don’t be a jerk. No means f&#king no! I set clear rules and I drew hard and very visable lines. My sailors who made the mistake of thinking that my rules and my lines were purely suggestive were, in a very unpolite and humiliating fashion, jerked back violently from the line.
    The truth is, I had almost as much trouble (based on formal counseling sessions and Article 15s) with young women possessing a high school cafeteria mentality as I did with intolerant, chauvinistic males. Tell me if you had a different experience. Navy Recruiter, Command Career Counselor and Command Master Chief; I saw things from a pretty broad perspective.
    We appear to be in violent agreement that the Marines ultimately failed to protect Lauterbach from Laurean. Why didn’t they? Blatant sexism or, is it a little more complicated than that? Did Lauterbach’s behavior add to the complexity? I vote: complicated. Standing by to be humbly corrected if I am wrong.

  37. [Polimom] — adam, you are welome to comment here, but unfortunately, this one crossed the lines.  I look forward to you re-posting this comment without the exceremental descriptions.

  38. Polimom,
    Being that I’ve been consistently misunderstood here, let me be clear: I am not blaming the victim! I am not rationalizing the behavior of the perp. I am, however, attempting to (unsuccessfully it appears) describe the possible mindset of Lauterbach’s CoC and why they failed to protect her. If Lauterbach recanted on the initial charges of rape against Laurean and had other credibility/professional issues, I think that a reasonable person might see that there existed a level of complexity that may have compromised the judgement of Lauterbach’s Chain of Command.
    …”When the type of behavior belloscm describes occurred, it was between a female service-member and someone of a higher rank — sometimes in her chain of command, and sometimes not”
    I’ve had, with few exceptions, a different experience. I’ve most often seen this: rank peers who go out as “buddies” and the female loses control of the situation, often due to some combination of the factors that I described in an earlier post. I have never been party to a case that could be clearly defined as coerced/forceable sexual assault entailing two people who did not have a pre-existing social relationship. In the abstract this does not constitute reducing the seriousness of sexual assault. It does, however, attempt to illustrate the difficulty in determining ground truth.
    Finally, let’s not conflate an unadjudicated charge of rape with what appears to be a clear-cut case of murder. My allusions of complexity apply only to the allegations of rape.
    I repeat for possible comprehension, I am not blaming the victim!

  39. Polimon,
    Sorry that you believe my aggragation of causal factors .. the young women often allow themselves to be alone in a hotel room or in private quarters with the accused. Young women not having the maturity to know the difference between touch and tackle. Young men not knowing the meaning of “no.” rises to the level of “blaming the victim.”
    It is my opinion that if, in the cases of alledged servicemember-servicemember rape, you removed at least two of the factors (pick any two) we would not be dealing with “morning after” scenarios.
    As to any perceived insensitivity, I disagree. Lauterbach is, tragically and unfortunately, dead. Please read my initial posts on this subject. Angry. Hurt. Ashamed that somebody didn’t prevent this. How to prevent a repeat? How to properly place the actions/inaction of her chain of command in their proper perspective? Sorry, speculation as to Lauterbach’s behavior, in as much as it was a factor in the decision making process of her CoC is, in my opinion, a legitimate line of inquiry.

  40. belloscm — Thank you for clarifying. I will agree with you that there can sometimes be blurry and muddy lines in sexual assault cases. However, while I have great respect for those who serve our country, I also believe that environment can often be toxic — but that would be the subject of a whole other post. Suffice to say that I have no trouble understanding FFM’s points.
    I also recognize that you’ve spent most of your energy in this thread examining the failure of Ms. Lauterbach’s CoC — and I appreciate your having shared your thoughts and experience on that subject. Your information and perspective have provided some good context, and you have raised great questions.
    You said:
    Finally, let’s not conflate an unadjudicated charge of rape with what appears to be a clear-cut case of murder. My allusions of complexity apply only to the allegations of rape.
    I nearly objected to this, but upon reflection, I appreciate your having pulled this point out. It’s a valid distinction. Thank you.

  41. Polimom,
    Whew! I’m glad that we are returning to an even keel on this one.
    You said:
    “I also believe that environment can often be toxic — but that would be the subject of a whole other post”
    Something that has gone unmentioned here, so let me get in and get out as quickly as possible: The failed attempts to successfully and reasonably regulate the conduct between male and female servicemembers.
    I can only speak about the Navy on this, but here it goes:
    When the navy first integrated men and women on combatant ships beginning in the mid 1990’s, many Commanding Officers established no dating rules. COs wanted and, the situation demanded, that this be a cut and dried issue.That is, no romantic relationships were to be allowed between crewmembers of the same ship. In order to maintain the credibility of the rule, Commanding Officers had to hold people accountable. Lots of people were held accountable. Commanding Officers ended up spending a lot of/too much time adjudicating these cases and servicemembers had careers placed into jeopardy for violated this rule. In the middle of the mid ’90s recruiting/manning crisis, we needed to keep people in, not throw them out. Guess what? The rule got changed. We decided that we couldn’t afford the cost of our own high standards.
    Romance onboard ships is now widespread. It complicates/compromises professional relationships (Anecdotes available upon request). Leaders spend too much time dealing with this issue and it’s ramifications. Lots of “he said-she said” going on. I suspect that the Navy is not alone in having to deal with this.
    My belated point is that many people in leadership become quite jaded from having to become the love “referee.” Maybe the Gunnies at Camp Lejeune fell into this situation.

  42. Didn’t really want to go here but I guess I have no choice… If you honestly expect me to believe in the time that you were in and with all of the positions that you held the only time you saw problems were where drinking or ;lack of judgment (by cause of age) . Then I have to say that your head was in the sand. I was two years into my service when I was raped by two Marine Sgt’s. that I had never seen/met before that night. I has not been drinking and they came to my room and attacked me. I went through all of the “proper”steps and then leaving the hospital was taken back to my command where I was in a room with all of my Sgts, Staff Sgt and Gunny as well as the Lt. I was asked if I was alright. Once they got that out of the way I was told that the Corps is a small place and if I would just say that it didn’t happen that I would get a “slap” on the wrist and things would go on like they did before. I told all of them that there was NO WAY that I was going to back down from this and say it NEVER HAPPENED!!! I SUFFERED IN LIVING HELL for the remainder of my time in the MARINES because of that choice. You know what… many women that go through what I did back down because of the sheer TORTURE that they suffer for trying to do the right thing and getting these MONSTERS tried and put in the Brig or Jail. Rank has it’s privileges and when you are a LCpl and are still new to the fleet you rely on those who are in your command to protect you, not for them to betray you. If there were inconsistencies in her “story”, I would bet that it had to do with the pressure from her chain of command to just say it never happened. As for the latest bit about her not being afraid for her safety….PLEASE… At this point the Marines in her command are trying the best they can to scramble to cover their own respective butts. If you notice none of the Jr Marines that were close to her have spoken out, why you might ask… Once again, if they speak they will risk punishment from the command and from other Marines for going against the Brotherhood. It’s sad to see that she had to give her life for people to notice that things are TERRIBLY WRONG in the Marines when it comes to this kind of “situation”. I sadly have to say that this won’t change the over all mentality of male service members. God help us if this, (many people in leadership become quite jaded from having to become the love “referee.” Maybe the Gunnies at Camp Jejune fell into this situation.) mentality that you have eluded to is accepted as the norm…

  43. FFM,
    I don’t know what to say. It is truly terrible what happened to you. That senior leadership failed to do the right thing has always and, still makes me, angry. If it turns out that either professional indifference and/or dereliction were a factor in Lauterbach’s murder, I hear that Leavenworth has vacancies.
    Sorry, never had direct exposure to a situation that remotely resembled yours.
    30 yrs (last 12 as MCPO) and I had my head out of my ass most of the time. I am disappointed that you would infer otherwise.
    I have honestly related to you and the others, via my previous posts, the totality of my experience WRT sexual assault. Accidental death of shipmates, Check. Suicide of shipmates, Check. Adultery, Inappropriate relationships, Domestic assault, unmarried mothers, felons masquerading as sailors: Check, Check Check, Check and Check. When lucky, I was able to prevent some of these incidents from occuring, but far too often, I dealt with the aftermath.
    A little sea story and then I’ll quit. I earlier related my respect for the Marines and my only friction being with those Marines involved in inappropriate conduct towards females. The Marine in question was a GySGT and the female was one of my sailors. I, in a dispassionate and professional manner, asked said Gunney to stop. No doubt feeling that his elevated hormone level and audience of junior Marines entitled him, he told me to F…off. I then pulled rank on the Gunney (E9 vs E7) and threatened him with a formal charge of inappropriate conduct if he persisted. Gunney Manhood now got really angry and called me a wimp for threatening to go the administrative route on him, so I indulged his desire to “rassle” around the workspace. The fight was a draw, but the Article 15 hearing was a rout. The now newly-minted Staff Sargeant got thrown off of the ship and I never saw nor heard of him again. His junior Marines, some of whom resisted me throughout the “showdown”, got the message and went to play bull in another sailor’s pasture.
    I’ve alluded to what I perceive to be elements of the Marine culture that encourage or promote chauvinistic behavior. Can’t speak to issues of forcible rape as I haven’t been exposed to them. I changed what I could and acted upon what I knew.

  44. O.K. my brain, my fingers and my keyboard are not calibrated. My 6:03 post should read:
    Over on the CNN website there is a partial transcript of an interview with an unnamed female Marine who knew both Lauterbach and Laurean. The unnamed Marine claims that Lauterbach requested a follow-on Military Protective Order after the original had lapsed in September of 2007. It is also claimed that Lauterbach was afraid of Laurean. OBTW, unnamed Marine also claims that Laurean had a very jealous wife. What did Mrs Laurean know and when did she know it?

  45. “The unnamed Marine claims that Lauterbach requested a follow-on Military Protective Order after the original had lapsed in September of 2007. “
    The person interviewed actually comes right out and says that there was a second protective order issued — that she herself is who processed it.
    Which brings me back full circle, amazingly enough, to my original post. What good is a piece of paper, when somebody’s intent on killing you?

  46. FFM,
    I changed my mind. I speed read your last post and, quite frankly, overlooked some of what you said. I now choose, upon further review, to respond more fully.
    Sorry, but the Lauderbach case, other than the fact that she is dead at the hands of another, is kinda complex and many of the facts are yet to be determined. You cannot overlay your experience upon this one and say “see, I told you!” or words to that effect. I don’t know enough about what transpired prior to Lauderbach’s demise, but I can attempt to interpret some things through the perspective of my own experience and the facts made available to me via open sources.
    When you make this a male vs female thing, when you refer to “the brotherhood,” you abandon all impartiality and reason. Maybe, her CoC was the cabal of chauvinistic ass wipes standing up for Team Testesterone that you seem to suggest. Maybe, they were merely insensitive and incompetent; Huge difference. Major difference in the level of culpability and acountability to which they should be held. I frankly don’t see any attempt on your part to make the distinction. Yep, guilty until proven innocent of gross insensitivity and good ‘ole boy-ism. While you’re on it, please make your case as to where and how I take sides with the boy’s team.
    You said:
    “God help us if this, (many people in leadership become quite jaded from having to become the love “referee.” Maybe the Gunnies at Camp Jejune fell into this situation.) mentality that you have eluded to is accepted as the norm…” Please quote me where I said that this represents the norm. Please, using logic and reason, demonstrate that fallacy of what I suggested (no emoting, please).
    Yeah, I was forced to become the Love Judge on many occasions and I didn’t like it too much, but I played the role and did what I could to protect my sailors, both physically and emotionally. Tell me again why I was compelled to do this? If this sounds a little too paternalistic for you, well, I plead guilty as charged.
    You seem to deeply regret any suggestion that victims take more responsibility for their own safety and the consequences of poor judgement. I feel pretty confident that I was able to prevent some incidents because I regularly emphasized personal responsibility. Please quote me where I suggested any form of exoneration for the perpatrator. Finally and, in all sincerity, please do not ascribe to me feelings or motives that I neither feel nor hold.

  47. Polimom,
    My language in describing “that Lauterbach requested a follow-on Military Protective Order after the original had lapsed in September of 2007 “ was very deliberate.
    Lance Corporals process, they do not authorize and or put into effect. She typed up the form and forwarded it up the CoC for approval.

  48. belloscm,
    Apparently there is no reasoning with you about this. You dealt with what you did and I dealt with what I did. You have your feelings or lack there of, and congrats on all of your “regularly emphasized personal responsibility speeches that seemed in your eyes to save many from problems. My bottom line in all of this… The people in her chain of command and fellow Marines failed to protect her! ” Attempt to interpret ” all you like as I’m sure that you will but neither you or I had the same experiences. I am only trying to tell you and others that not every experience has a fairy tale ending and many females not due to any fault of their own go through Hell to make people accountable for their actions. Walk in my shoes for a while and see if you are not somewhat “Jaded” when it comes to these kind of issues. I’m sure that if you had gone through the experience that I did you wouldn’t be so callous to others feelings. BTW, I never said that you said that this is the norm just telling you that it seems to be the norm when dealing with these issues in the Marines, as they don’t want to act on information given. As you put it “many people in leadership become quite jaded from having to become the love “referee.” No one is talking about being a “love referee” we are talking about crimes that are committed against female service members. Please realize the difference.

  49. Don’t know where to start, but I’ll try.
    I’ve acknowledged your experience; I’ve also said that I haven’t dealt with a rape case apparently so black and white in nature. Your experience is not representative of every other rape case. You also appear to be dismissive and mocking of my point of view because it does not align with your own. I’m looking for the word or words to describe this, but I’m sure that you won’t like it.
    You have mis-interpreted (willfully?) the intent of my remarks regarding the “love judge.” Let’s try this: If the the overwhelming majority of sexual assault cases that come across your desk involve: a)people who have voluntarily entered into a social relationship; b) the strongest testimony arises to the level of “he said-she said’ and c); there is zero corroborating physical evidence in almost every case, what do you do (BTW, elements of the above are present in the Lauterbach case)? This what you don’t do: you do not schedule a morning hanging for the alledged perpetrator. You do not indict or impugn the motives of an entire organization based on the perceived misbehavior of some. You investigate and follow the evidence. Throw in knowledge of a couple of frivolous / fraudulent charges of rape during your career and you become very circumspect and/or jaded.
    Remember, false charges of rape never happen except for when they do. I really hate to say this, but see under Lacrosse, Duke. If you are truly seeking knowledge I’ll tell you about my own professional experience with a false and malicious charge of rape. The falsely accused went through HELL. The person who made the false accusation suffered no adverse circumstances. Justice, I say.
    BTW, please feel free to peruse ALL of my previous posts on this subject. I believe that I have given due consideration to all sides. Point out where I have not, if you can. Check the previous posts, guess who first expounded upon the subject of Chain of Command culpability? Yes, ultimately the Marines failed to protect Lauterbach (I seem to remember that some retired Master Chief talked about that, too). The question is: why?
    You assume and project about mutual protection societies. I inquire and, lacking solid info, speculate from multiple perspectives. I recognise your perspective, you mock mine. Huh?

  50. More on the CNN interview with the unnamed female Marine.
    The updated online story states that a second MPO was in effect at the time of Lauterbach’s death, Hmm, the Marines have said that the original MPO was allowed to expire because Lauterbach and Laurean “appeared to have a friendly relationship.” Either the Marines are not being accurate (lying, perhaps?) about the MPO or LCpl Unnamed Female has conflated a processed MPO with an implemented MPO. Who would have signed the MPO, Unit Commander? Base CG? JAG? Anyone with knowledge of this process?
    An investigation of the rape allegations determined that there was consentual sex and no force used. If anyone finds the following to be determinative of rape, please enlighten me:
    “The friend said Lauterbach confided in her that she had consensual sex with Laurean, but that a verbal argument had occurred, and the alleged rape followed in Laurean’s office at Camp Lejeune.
    The March encounter was judged to be “not criminal in nature,” or consensual, said Col. Gary Sokoloski, staff judge advocate for the II Marine Expeditionary Force. The second encounter, in April, involved no threats or force, Lauterbach said.”
    …She (unnamed female marine) also said Lauterbach told her she was thinking about withdrawing the rape allegation because she didn’t think officials were taking her seriously.
    There is no way Lauterbach and Laurean had a relationship after the alleged rape, the friend said, disputing information from authorities who have said the two maintained contact after the alleged rape.

  51. FFM,
    A follow-up to my last response.
    You said: “No one is talking about being a “love referee” we are talking about crimes that are committed against female service members. Please realize the difference.”
    You are assuming that Lauterbach and Laurean’s CoC had proof of “crimes … committed against female service members.”
    It is pretty clear that they had no such “proof”, given the determination of the Command JAG. Should they (the CoC) have been more watchful? I think so. Evidence of dereliction and/or professional indifference? Not that I’ve seen or read. I do, however, have my doubts.
    In an earlier post , you wrote: “If you notice none of the Jr Marines that were close to her have spoken out, why you might ask… Once again, if they speak they will risk punishment from the command and from other Marines for going against the Brotherhood.” Sorry, I reject the conspiracy and quashing of the truth angle. This is Standard Operating Procedure for events that might attract significant media attention. This prevents PFC Gotithalfright from putting out information based on rumor, half-truths and innuendo that may adversely affect public opinion. It’s called Public Relations.

  52. belloscm,
    Any more follow-ups to your follow up? Just checking… No matter what I say you are going to disagree. Funny how the only person that knew both of them took so long to come forward and is now a civilian, but still had her face blacked out for fear of lash back… Don’t know… Sounds to me like the truth. Not as you put it “conspiracy and quashing of the truth angle.” Well, Thank you for all of your enlightening words and thoughts. Two different people, two different perspectives… I will be interested to see how this all unravels.

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