Gay or straight: re-approaching the question of marriage

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  1. I suggested something like this a while back over on my blog. I think it’s a good idea, because it gets at the big confusion of the gay marriage debate – we’re talking about two different things. So one person says, “I want my government to treat me the same way as it treats you,” and someone else says “I don’t wan t you to tinker with my religious ceremony,” and nothing really can be resolved.
    I’ll also note that some religious gay marriage opponents have utilized this confusion quite effectively, planting the idea that if same-sex marriage is legal then churches will be forced to perform same-sex ceremonies. Which is an outlandish claim; apart from being utterly unconstitutional, there’s no indication that courts are willing to intervene in what happens inside a church (one area of law that has never really changed). The government has never even tried to get a Catholic Church to perform a wedding for someone who’s been divorced, for goodness sake.
    But it does get people nervous, and given how many of our citizens are woefully ignorant of what their own Constitution says, it’s an effective organizing tactic.

  2. You write:
    “What if, when a couple gets married in a church, there are two documents generated, instead of one — a recognition of the legal union, and a religious sanction of the marriage? The marital church document on its own would not then confer spousal status in terms of government recognition; that civil and contractual authority would stand separately.”
    That’s the way it is now. What else happens during the ceremony — whether religious or civil — is irrelevant to the legal requirement (in my state at leas) that the spouses-to-be say the words, “I take you as my husband/wife.” If conducted in a religious setting, the religious organization can generate whatever paper it wants. They can do that now, or not, as they wish.
    That being the case, it’s not clear what you’re suggesting.

  3. John W — to have arrived at the point of standing in front of an official who will perform a ceremony, a couple first had to apply for a license. It’s that license that kicks off the entire chain of events, and after a union is joined, it is the license that is finalized and returned to the government entity (here, the county clerk). The ceremony itself is the second stage in a process.
    If that certificate is called a “marriage certificate”, then the approach might be to replace the word marriage with something else (civil union? legal union? pick a non-volatile term….), since it is the document upon which everything currently rests (as you said).
    Once they have official authorization in hand, if the couple then chooses to unite in front of a JP, it would merely finalize the documentation. The union has been joined. On the other hand, if they choose a religious ceremony, the church official would still be finalizing the union (as they already do), and could likewise confer “marriage”.
    In both cases, the “uniting” gets recognized by the state, but only in the latter is it a marriage, as defined and defended traditionally.
    What I’m trying for is a way to distinguish between someone “marrying” — as in religious sanctification or blessing of a union — from legally uniting in the eyes of the law. From where I sit, it’s this blurring between the separate entities (church and state) that is causing the problems.
    Also — in this state (Texas), there is no specific wording or phrase that must be spoken to validate a union. It sounds as if your state has inserted the religious terminology directly into its governmental process. Do you have a link to that requirement?
    And did this clarify what I’m proposing for you?

  4. The government often gives preferential treatment to one group of people or another using its lawmaking and regulatory powers. For example, the tax code is used not only to collect so-called revenues but also to encourage behaviors such as investment and to provide subsidies such as dependent deductions and the child tax credit, to name just two.
    In other words it’s a function of the government to encourage behaviors that the public as a whole deem desirable and to discourage the opposite.
    Polls clearly indicate that gay marriage is not desired by a majority of Americans. In this situation, the proper response of a republican government is to either penalize the undesired behaviors or to reward the desired ones.
    In the case of defining marriage we’ve gone with the latter to-date and rightly so – the purpose of coupling, after all, is to produce more ACs, and that’s what’s important, not giving legal sanction to undesirable unions.

  5. The purpose of coupling is to produce children? That’s interesting. Why do we let infertile people marry? Why are post-menopausal women allowed to get married? Do they ask if you’re planning to have kids on the marriage license application?
    Meanwhile there are same-sex couples doing the actual hard work and making the personal sacrifices to raise children.

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  7. marc said (among other things):

    Polls clearly indicate that gay marriage is not desired by a majority of Americans. In this situation, the proper response of a republican government is to either penalize the undesired behaviors or to reward the desired ones.

    But marc, is it the “marriage” aspect that is not desired? Or the civil union?

  8. But marc, is it the “marriage” aspect that is not desired? Or the civil union?

    My money is on it being the former. As I have commented elsewhere, we got ourselves into this fine mess by overloading the term “marriage” (that is, putting both a religious and a civil definition on the word.) Certainly, a “civil union” (which IIRC John agreed could be automatically ratified in a religious ceremony of marriage) is one way out of the morass, but I truly think we need to narrow the scope of “marriage” to the religious sense, or else we will never come to a reasonable resolution (reasonable in the sense of “something all sides can live with.”)
    My guess is that altering the meaning of a word (in this case, marriage) whose meaning has been pretty much a given for about as long as human civilization has existed (I am still waiting for some evidence that any society in the past has sanctioned long-term homosexual relationships as marriages) is what is getting folks’ dander up. However, given that modern Western society has recognized the existence of such relationships and no longer automatically criminalizes them (though this is not necessarily the case in other societies), it stands to reason that we need some means for conveying the legal ‘benefits’ of traditional marriage to such couples.
    At the same time, the “marriage amendments” aren’t only aimed at preventing “gay marriage” – given that they tend to define marriage as being “between one man and one woman”, they also exclude polygamous (the “one and one”), as well as adult/child (“man” and “woman” referring in this instance to adults) marriages, both of which are totally acceptable in some societies.
    Oh, and I think that putting this issue up before the people (via the legislative chambers) is a much better solution than having judges issue rulings altering the meaning of marriage. Despite what some may think, how we as a society choose to structure our institutions is something that the people need to buy in to, not simply leave to small groups of folks to determine.
    ~EdT.

  9. I absolutely love your idea, Polimom. While you would convince many, I think there’s a fundamental problem we’re missing. When marc commented, (I’m assuming “he”), he didn’t say one word about your proposal. He said that those unions were “undesirable” and that we should listen to the majority. People who oppose gay “marriage” or “unions” say that they oppose it because of the religious undertone – that it would undermine their religious meaning of marriage. (Just as a side note, I honestly think that the high rate of divorce and domestic violence ruin marriage a hell of a lot more than gay unions.) However, people don’t oppose it because of that – it’s simply their reason. They oppose it because they don’t want it – they don’t want to see it, hear about it, or think about it. And nothing you say or do is going to change their mind. People who oppose gay marriage oppose homosexuality altogether. And when you think gay people are wrong in themselves, you will never agree with something that lets them be together.

  10. Jess —
    You’re absolutely right; there are people who simply cannot make it past the “homosexuality is wrong, and I oppose it, no matter what” level. However, I disagree strongly with marc’s suggestion that there is a majority that is stuck there.
    The vast majority of people I’ve spoken with (out here in my conservative suburbia) agree, generally, with what I’ve written here. Conservativism, in its pure sense (sans religious override) is not interested in legislating morality. Liberalism isn’t, either.
    Unfortunately, “the people” don’t ever register their actual opinions, nor are the options ever presented to them in a way they can understand. Everything is overwhelmed by heat and rhetoric, and the zealous screeching tends to mute other dialogue.
    Ed — I agree that legislation is more sensible than a judiciary forcing issues. Unfortunately, when legislation is narrowly focused to shut out a sub-group of the population (as it has often been), the role of the judiciary is to protect the sub-group.
    Until legislators can distinguish between the religious (not their job) and the civil, I think we’re stuck on a see-saw.
    I wish there was a way to send this little post to somebody in a position to do something about it…
    Thanks, everyone, for your input.

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